Name: Xiao Quan

Age: 28

City: Shanghai

What kind of artist do you want to be, and what kind of artist do you not want to be?

I want to become a famous artist, don’t want to be an unknown artist.

What extent of fame are you referring to? What kind?

As famous as Ai WeiWei, of course! And as famous as Takashi Murakami! They are both artists I  like.

That’s quite ambitious. So, at the least you don’t want to be an artist who never had a solo show, right?

Right, absolutely. Definitely have to have a solo show.

Why are solo shows so important?

I think it’s because you need to have personal expression. I think artists have to make their personal expression, they have to have the desire to be outspoken in their ideas. And only expressing is not enough, expression is just one way. You also have to evoke communication and interaction. As an artist, you have to communicate with others. For example, you said something, others heard it. And then they give you some feedback. Then you explain your ideas to them, or have further discussion with them. Anyway, if you are an artist, you have to visualize your idea, show your work in exhibitions, and let the audience see it.

Sounds like the so-called fame is actually that you really want to be accepted and recognized by more people.

Right. You need to be recognized too, yes.

I thought you are that kind of artist… but in fact it sounds like you really want to become the kind of artist who follows the normal trajectory.

What kind? I’m quite interested in discussing this idea of normal and non-normal trajectory with you.

Because I think those kinds of normal/standard trajectory artists are quite boring.

Actually, first, I don’t quite agree with that. Second, you think unfamous artists like me are quite interesting, or the work we make is interesting, you think it’s pretty good. But the fact is, perhaps it’s not that interesting.

Why? What’s your own standard? The reason that you think they are not that great, is it because you feel like the things that you are doing now are not enough, and you want more?

Yes, it’s not enough. And then, the quality is also not enough, quantity is not enough, scale is not enough.

For you, what's the most interesting thing about working in the art world, as well as dealing with people who are in this circle? What attracts you and make you want to do stuff in it?

I think it’s that you can pass time while having fun, and make money while having fun. I think that’s really good.

You can make money in it?

Well, you should be able to earn money regardless of if you are doing art. The money I make now is basically only enough to survive, live a city youngster’s life. Later, I want to have a supposed urban middle-age man’s life.

What kind of life is that?

Well, as an urban middle-age man, you are supposed to have a car and a house, right? You have to have a wife and kid, ok? Maybe one kid is not enough? And once you have all that, what you earn as an urban youngster is not enough anymore, right?

Are you prepared to enter middle-age now? What kind of feeling is that?

Right, right, right. Exactly, that’s how it is. You have to prepare in advance. In fact, it’s not that I want to prepare. Time will make me a middle-age man anyway.

You don’t even resist? You don’t say, “Wait, I don’t want to enter mid-life so quickly”?

No, I don't. I want it to happen as fast as possible. How can I resist against time?

Why?

Because I really want to enter a very stable mode. All kinds of things are on the track, everything can run by itself. I really like this kind of status. That’s also how I make my work. A lot of the performances, I don’t have to “perform” them. As soon as it happens, as long as it’s on the track, you will realize the “performance” is self-generated.

How long ago did you start to develop this kind of thinking? Do you think there were changes? Maybe you didn’t think like this a few years ago? Is it because that you are getting older?

I’ve always thought like this, but I was never able to reach that point. So I’ve got to work harder later. I really don’t think it’s a bad thing, it’s very correct. I don’t think it’s boring either. I think we can get back to what you said earlier about “that kind of artist”. I generally understand that you think those artists are fun and interesting. But I personally don’t agree with that. Honestly, I think a lot of those artists that you think are interesting are not interesting at all. I don’t think art is that easy, that it’s really like what Beuys said, “everyone is an artist,” or as Andy Warhol said, “everyone can be famous for 15 minutes.” Really? If anyone can be an artist, then why do we still need artists?

First, I think anyone can try anything in the world, and anyone can try to make art. But during this process, you will realize there is a quality difference. Among all the artworks, there has to be some ranking. It’s unavoidable. It’s about the quality of art and culture. For example, just like when you ordered the coffee, you complained that it shouldn’t be put in a plastic cup. They should be upgraded, put in a porcelain cup, along with a cookie or chocolate. And the waiter should be serving it respectfully. And then when you asked the waiter why they didn’t use a porcelain cup, he just said, “no, we don’t have it” and then shrugged and walked away. What does this indicate? It indicates the service level of this coffee shop is not high enough.

Then, there are just too many people making this kind of coffee. A lot of people can pop up and open a café. But then how can we say this one is a good café? Besides, the key problem here is, for this cup of coffee, we still have to pay more than 30RMB. Is it worth it?

This is the problem culture and art is facing today. For example, there are plenty of young Chinese artists and their works on the art market. Today, a collector has to pay 50,000RMB or 100,000RMB to buy the work of a young artist. On what basis? It’s very likely the artist just suddenly had the inspiration last night and made the work today.

I think this kind of phenomenon is often considered by many as interesting. They will say this work is against the mainstream, against current art institutions, against the system. It’s very alternative, etc…

But I sincerely don’t think they have reached that point. If they really want to be different, really be significant in our time, different from today’s art museums and independent art institutions, then I will really really think they are awesome. But up to this point, I really have to say, I think I have the ability to identify what’s good art. But in fact, I think the works I see, or many of the artists I know, don’t have such an ability.

I think one thing that’s especially important: you can’t stop trying to become mainstream just because you failed at it. It’s like, you can’t reach and enter the mainstream and you can’t make your work sophisticated enough so you step back to the second rate. I think this is not good. But the fact is that I do see many artists who are incapable of reaching the extent of delicateness, both for their ideas and craft. And then they also lack ability. They are short of funding and production scale to support their creation. So if things continue like this, in the end, they will use phrases like “independent” or “alternative” to decorate themselves. I think compared to those Ai Wei Wei and Takashi Murakami kind of artists, these kinds of artists who had to stop because they can’t reach the extreme are more hypocritical.

Can you talk a bit more about artists as entrepreneurs?

So back to what I meant earlier: artist as curator, curator as artist, writer as artist, artis as author… I think none of these tendencies are that significant. To me, the most significant is artist as entrepreneur, and entrepreneur as artist.

I want to talk about the relationship between artist and entrepreneur. Artist as entrepreneur and entrepreneur as artist, I think it’s a historical practice. Da Vinci and Rembrant all reflected the way of the entrepreneurship to some extent. I even think ancient Chinese painters and art academies, and those porcelain-making workshops had all combined the features of art and enterprise.

Today, many super artists’ work reflects the relationship between artist and entrepreneur. And many emerging artists are using the company mode to handle their studios and artwork production, as well as their relationship with the gallery. I think this is very good. I don’t think whenever art is linked with commerce then it’s bad or wrong. I don’t know when such a prejudice was formed. I think people probably don’t understand there has been a long-time connection between artist and entrepreneur, art and business. It’s a historical practice.

Art and business all require innovation. I think artist today should thoroughly think about their relationship with commerce, the relationship between art and the art market, and try to make art’s business model more innovative. The economical mode that a gallery presents is actually really old, it perhaps has existed since before the industrial age. In today’s information age, Internet age, do you see any innovation in the gallery world? Look at the way artworks were sold, and the way artists got into exhibitions in the last century, do you see any fundamental innovation? If the artist as artist can’t solve this problem, then could the artist as entrepreneur make some change?

How do you think you are different from other artists?

Depends on who am I compared with. I think I don’t really want to be compared to others. I’m more ambitious, and I’m quite sincere. In short, these might be the two differences. I have ambition, and I’m very ambitious. Some people don’t have ambition, or their ambition is not big enough. Some people have ambition, their ambition is big enough, but they are not sincere enough.

What do you mean by sincere? Sincere about what?

I’m sincere in my ambition and I’m very responsible for it.  I’m sincere about art, and responsible for it. I’m also genuine about business, responsible for it. Anyway, I think many of the artists I know and and am familiar with don’t have the guts and boldness to be sincere.

Maybe I’m wrong, maybe it has nothing to do with sincerity. Maybe being insincere can make your art career longer. Maybe being un-genuine can make the quality of artwork better. Maybe being less sincere can make better business. Maybe?

But I think being transparent enough and sincere enough can make the art quality better, and make your aura better, make you more successful in business, and make it easier to realize your ambition. I think many artists don’t dare to confront their own desire and ambition; neither do they dare to be outspoken about their desire and ambition. Or perhaps they can’ t clearly express it, lack the capability.

And there are some other artists. They are great, really great. But their shortcoming is they will be influenced too much by the commercial part of art, or be drained of talent by commerce, because they don’t have the energy or time or ability and understanding to deal with the commerce.

Can you introduce yourself?

Me? I’m a guy. Ah, how interesting I’m telling a girl that I’m a guy. So I’m just an ambitious art practitioner who is ambitious about culture and art. I think anyone who primarily focuses their energy on art practice is an artist. So I’m an ambitious artist.

If choosing to be an artist is like a chef ordering the dishes, then I hope to add some more desert and a few more dishes. I’m very willing to claim myself as both an artist and writer. I have been, and will be writing more soon. Not only from a writer’s perspective, but also from an artist’s perspective. I think, some time later, maybe also from a novel writer’s perspective. Back to writing itself, because this is where my interest lies.

And then, I also think I’m no longer young. But many people still think I’m quite young. It makes me confused. I’m very much in crisis, a very strong sense of crisis.

You don’t want people to think you are still young because you think they don’t treat you seriously?

No, they really seriously think I’m young. But I really don’t think I’m young anymore. So I have to especially make good use of time. I think I also have a very good and huge theme that I’ve kept. I just recently started but haven’t completed much yet. So the theme originates from my no longer thinking I’m young, and is about my crisis.

So the theme is, I’m wondering if being an artist is an imagination. Can you imagine yourself as an artist? What is indeed an artist? Is an artist an imagination? Or should we imagine the artist? Or rather, the identity of the artist is a sort of imagination? Because of all the questions, I think I can no longer only be immersed by the consideration of the artist. I have to hurry and do something, do many things every year. Hurry up, and make plans. Only when you start making it can that lead to the next thing, new things.

Sounds like you are running against your own anxiety and sense of existence.

Yes, running against life.

Interviewed on Anfu Rd, Shanghai. December 30th, 2015