Tan Tian

City: New York

Website: www.tan-tian.com

Can you introduce yourself?

My name is Tan Tian, I’m 30 years old. I’m currently doing my master’s at Hunter College in New York. I’m going to be graduating in 2 months. After that, I’ll go back to China. What else? I’m the father of two kids.

Do you usually emphasize your identity as a father these days? 

Yeah, I’m pretty proud of that, because it’s not easy. So the harder it is, the more you want to brag about it. Many people don’t have this experience, and they will think, “Wow, that must be hard.”

When you were introducing yourself, you also said you’re a student. But why didn’t you say you’re an artist?

I probably shouldn’t be counted as an artist right now. I used to be, but currently my main identity is a student. Because basically all my exhibitions here these days are just student exhibitions. And all the exhibitions in China are basically paused — I mostly make installation works, so there are a lot of shipping problems, and I thought it was too much trouble. Unless it’s a very important exhibition,  I don’t do any domestic exhibitions in China anymore. So for me, the main identity now is that I’m a student. Then, it’s husband and dad.

You are now working on your master’s degree, but you also studied in the UK before, right?

Yeah, I was doing my pre-college study and undergrad study in the UK.

Also as an art major?

Right.

From what we can see from exhibitions and press in China, it seems like you already studied art, got your diploma,  have gallery representation… it feels like you are already a real artist. Why would you want to come here and continue studying when you were doing pretty well with your art career in China? Or, in other words, what else is there to learn? It seems like you already have developed your own system. 

There are in fact many reasons. One being, both of my parents are teachers. I always liked to teach others when I was little. So, it’s been a dream of mine to become a teacher. Plus, my life experience makes me feel like I’ll be pretty good at teaching. But the lowest threshold for being a teacher is you need a master’s degree. So,  I need to get a master’s degree, that’s one reason.

And then there is another reason: when I made works before, it was mostly because it’s fun. My whole family, including my aunties, my whole family works in the art and design industry. So, my world is really small, it’s only this small frame. To me, making art was not a glamorous thing, it’s just one part of life.

So back then when I was making art, making a lot of works about institutional critique, it’s because I couldn’t see the world outside of that. There was nothing else I can do. For example, the hard life of the working folks, I’ve never had that kind of experience. There are artists in Beijing whose studios were relocated or demolished, but I’ve never had my studio in those areas. So, I’m not very sensitive to a lot of the social reality, because I don’t have that kind of experience. If I were to make this kind of work deliberately, I would feel like I’m using them. It would feel very awkward. So I’ve always been making works about art institutions. 

However, along the way, I start to realize the limitation of it. Contemporary art itself is already a very small cult world, and I’m doing something that’s within this small circle. So to me, the more I work, the more boring it gets. What I was doing before was: I make a work, and I point out a problem. I say, “Look, here is a problem.” And then, because I understand the rules of this system, I’m also using it to my benefit. When I first started doing it, I felt the ambiguity was quite interesting.

But as I kept on doing more and more works like this, I suddenly realized this circle is too small. And because it’s so small, its degree of interest is limited. If you don’t have a bigger platform, then all you’re doing is just within this small circle. I’m not saying that’s not good, it’s just that it’s not interesting enough to motivate me to make more works. Maybe I’ll keep on pointing out all kinds of problems I see in this circle, but what’s the point of that? Because this thing, and this platform itself has a problem. But I was just standing on top of the platform and pointing out its problems; I was not pointing out the problem of the platform itself. So how can I point out the problem of the platform itself? The best way is to stand outside of it. So that was why I felt I was reaching a block at the time. I needed to get out and reposition myself in a new environment.

Especially before I came to America, I already knew it’s a country that uses identity to talk about things a lot. I think using identity to talk about issues is the quickest way to engage discussion in social discourse, rather than discussing art discourse. So that’s why I felt I needed to come to the US to study.

Was the actual experience here similar to what you imagined? Or, what you were envisioning – to be able to discuss wider topics – did that come true?

Yeah, that for sure. The works that I’m making now are all because I came here, and I created them according to my own feelings and judgements. And I feel like the works I’m making now can be put into a wider platform for discussion. It can be just talking about art for art’s sake, but it also can be viewed from an identity point of view — why me, this person who’s talking about art in this time frame. What I’m talking about is referring to something much deeper. It’s referring to is the entire state of the society.

You mentioned earlier that your whole family works in art-related fields. So when you first graduated from your undergrad study, how did you get so many exhibition opportunities so quickly back in China? You were already showing quite complete and coherent works. What was the process like, from graduation to your first solo show? How did the exhibition at White Space Beijing come about?

Right. In retrospect, it was quite something. When I was in high school, my family never forced me to be an artist. But of course, because they were all working in the field, I saw and knew a lot about it. So there was a basic understanding of art, but I never thought that I could be an artist.

In fact, when you are just graduating from high school, you don’t have many deep thoughts of what you want to become one day. I was looking at what my biggest advantages are. And because my whole family works in art, I thought maybe I’ll just do the same. So that was what I studied for my undergrad. While at school, I found I never had that kind of creative passion, or sentimental inspiration towards things. I had none of that, so I thought I’m probably not the artsy type. 

After graduation, I actually didn’t make art. I was looking for jobs after returning to China. First, I was doing all kinds of random things. One job that I had for a while was working in an interior design company making art products. For example, this kind of coffee shop, this kind of wall, maybe here they only put up some wallpaper, but we can make it a bit more artistic; art-themed hotels — as soon as you walk into the lobby, there’s a sculpture. But of course, that sculpture won’t really be purchased from some artist; they need something that looks artsy, but the price is much lower than a real artwork. So that’s what we were doing. The client told us what they wanted, and we gave them proposals. Say an artist made a Hanfu with silk, then we can make one with linen. We would go to all kinds of art fairs, take photos of artworks, and use a different material to mimic the work and make it our own. Make samples, show it to all kinds of clients. I was doing this for a little over a year. 

So this experience gave me very strong practical abilities. I know what kind of factories to look for, how to make it, and how to finish the project most efficiently. That’s what I learned from the job. But after that, I suddenly realized I can’t go to work like that. It’s really tiring. I didn’t feel depressed, but it was super tiring. I’d have to go on business trips very often, as well as installing the work on site, or supervising the workers making the work in factories. And then I felt like I couldn’t do it anymore, but I still wanted to make art.

After working a 9-5 job every day for one year, I was really longing to make my own work. While working at that job, all kinds of things you want to make will be revised by the client. And no matter how ugly the changes they want to make are, you have to say, “awesome.” I was really fed up by that and wanted to make art. But I was not really sure how to start making it. So then I sent my resume to all the galleries in Beijing, and wanted to work in a gallery. I thought that since galleries are the primary market, they would let me understand most quickly how the contemporary art world works. 

So I submitted my resume. I was looking for a full-time job, and there were a few places that offered me a job, but not every place was hiring. I applied to about 30-40 galleries, and there were two that officially offered me a job in the end. I chose the White Space Gallery, because they were giving me a relatively wider range of tasks. The other place wanted me because I had an art background, so they wanted me to work in customs clearance — a very specific job. While the White Space said they were just a small gallery with limited staff, if I worked there, they wouldn’t give me a specific job, but instead I’d have to tap into everything. I thought that was pretty good, so I went to work there.

I worked in the White Space Gallery for about a year, and during that time, I was also doing my own work. So in that sense, I was not really a very good employee. At the same time, I was coming into contact with all kinds of Chinese contemporary artists. The ones who were working with the White Space were all young artists, so we were having a lot of conversations. They were all about my age, or just a few years older. Through learning about their lives and environment, I was getting a clearer picture of the contemporary art world.

So I was making my own work, and White Space knew I was making my work, but they never really thought my works were good enough for them, never asked me to join an exhibition. I’d often tell them, “Hey, I made this work, do you want to take a look?” And they would say, “Ah, not bad.” But then there was never any continued dialogue and no exhibition opportunity. And then one year, it was March. March is a very important exhibition period for White Space, because Hong Kong Basel also happens during that time. In China, March and September are all very important exhibition times. But then, the artist who was originally planning to have a show there couldn’t make it. It was around Chinese New Year’s time in February when they learned the news, and they just couldn’t find someone whose work can fill the rooms they had. Because they have two big rooms, and that space really can swallow the work. So they didn’t have anyone. If it was a small exhibition, maybe they could still find someone. But when they couldn’t find anyone who could fill the space, all of a sudden they realized I was constantly making works, and I was updating my website. They found so many works on my website. So they said, “Hey, in fact, we’ve been paying attention to you the whole time, you’ve always been on our list.” And they asked, “So do you want to do it?” I said, “Sure.” So that’s how I got the first exhibition opportunity at White Space.

The exhibition was How to Become a Contemporary Artist?

Right, that one.

 Did you already have all of the artworks ready before they offered the space for the show?

Yeah, I had all the works. I’m never the type where I will show a proposal to someone and say, “What do you think of my proposal? If it’s ok, I’ll start working on it once you give me the funding.” I only show them when the work is complete. Because I’m really afraid of hassle. I’m the kind that before the opening, I’ve already thought through where I’m going to place all the works. My installation of a show has never been longer than half a day. Basically, it’s just put, put, put, done. All my installations are very simple; my works are not delicate. To me, if it’s ok visually, then it’s done. No need to reach a particular extent of precision.

Were you still working at the gallery during the show?

I was.

Working there and having your show in the gallery at the same time? 

Yeah, that exhibition received a lot of good reviews. And because of that show, my work was known by all kinds of people all of a sudden. Meanwhile, quite coincidently, Central Art Academy was having a show called “CAFAM · Future”, and I was also in that. In the show, I presented a huge wall, and put the wedding registration picture of me and my wife on it. That work was quite eye-catching. The work at CAFAM felt a bit ostentatious, while the show at White Space felt quite academic, so those two shows together made people think I’m someone who’s quite deep. From there, a lot of exhibition opportunities came.

You officially walked into the art world from then on.

Right, White Space wasn’t expecting that at all either. So quite randomly I became their represented artist. That’s how it happened.

How long did you continue working there after the show was over?

A little over a month.

After the show, you reversed the situation and let the gallery work for you. 

Because that show sold pretty well. It was 2014, and China’s economy was doing pretty well.

Did they say, “You don’t have to come work anymore, go back and make more work” or…?

No, I decided to quit. Because when it was selling really well, I suddenly realized I didn’t have to work there anymore. I needed to focus on my work. The purpose of working at the gallery was so that I could understand what the deal with contemporary art is. Selling well meant, maybe I myself wasn’t sure how it worked, but the part that I did understand was working already, so there was no need for me to continue working there anymore. It’s not like I was there for the salary, the gallery salaries are not high anyway.

So then, you became a real artist with a studio? 

Yes.

You mentioned you worked for an art production company where you were making art products that looks like real artwork. It seems like that experience was reflected in your series “How to Make a Contemporary ArtWork”.

For sure they are related.

The works in your solo show, were they made before you started working for the gallery or were they made while you had the gallery job?

The “How to become a Contemporary Artist” project was started when I was working at the gallery. “How to make a Contemporary Artwork” is part of the project. I was working at the gallery till 6pm every day. After 6, I would go to my studio and stay there till 9pm basically everyday.

I at first only saw pictures of your works in the media. The first time I actually saw your work in person was back at J Gallery. I remember there was a baby’s dining chair as soon as you stepped inside the gallery, and the plate of the chair said “feed me”. That was quite humorous. I feel like humor is rare in a lot of contemporary artworks. But at the same time, I was thinking to myself, why is this person so confident, that they dare to grab some random object, write something on it, and show it in a gallery? It’s like how Duchamp signed his name on ready-mades. It seems like a lot of artists in China don’t have this kind of casual and confident approach to making work.

That’s true domestically, but it’s quite common abroad. I don’t think that’s anything special. It all has to do with how you look at it. For example, you asked me what kind of cooperation I have with White Space. To be honest, I don’t really know myself. And the reason is that: before, I did have exhibitions with them, so it counts as collaboration. But I never told myself, “Ok, I’m going to make this my main career.” Because I don’t look at it that way. I was very clear that I wanted to go on with my studies, and I knew that once I went back to school, all the works I made before would become nothing. And in fact, the more I sold, the more damaging it becomes.

How so?

Because you actually have an agreement with the collectors. When they are buying your work, beside the work itself, they also hope the value will increase. So, they want to see you continuing to make a presence. They don’t need to know how your work has increased in value. But they need to know that you are constantly showing your work. That’s good for them, they will trust you more. But in my case, I knew I was going abroad to study, and naturally I would be out of the scene for a while. For them, this is a kind of betrayal. I knew it, so I never said… I guess I just don’t want to lie to people. 

But now that you are finishing your study here and going back to China again, does your status in the art world become official again? Would you make a commitment to the career now?

I guess so, but I don’t look at it that way. Before, I thought that after I finished my graduate study, I’d officially begin life as an artist. I’d start making more of an effort managing my career, including what I talk about — everything has to be very formal. But now, especially with the new project I’m currently working on, it has inspired me a lot. So once I get back, I’m probably going to work the same way as before.

After going back, I hope I can work three jobs. One is being a teacher, another is being an artist, and the third would be as an art advisor – but an advisor for other people, not for myself. The main money-making part would be as an art advisor. In terms of how I’m going to do it, that’s a business secret. But that would be my main source of income.

As for being an artist, it’s mainly about saying things that I want to say. I think the happiest part for me now is that I don’t really want to discuss the pros and cons of my work. Before, I would be really curious, and say, “Hey, what do you think of my work? Do you think it’s good or bad? Why is it not good? Tell me and I’ll make a change.” Maybe I wouldn’t say “I’ll make a change.” But after you tell me, I will pay attention to it, and focus on that part more when making the work.

Now I don’t care about it at all. Because I no longer treat what I make as an artwork. Instead, I have to say what I want to say. This is far more important than the work itself. Whether this thing is a better way of communicating, if it’s delivered accurately, or whether this thing is even a good product, whether its circulation would bring you more benefit… none of these are my concern. My concern is about what do I want to say. That’s why I have to make work. And the reason I want to be a teacher, or an art advisor, is all because I want to talk about issues that I want to talk about.

What is it that you want to talk about then? 

It’s about freedom of speech. But talking about it from different positions will bring different perspectives. In fact, this is more about my political stand. As a person, my opinions about things have become so strong that the ways I talk about them are just a kind of method to me now. Maybe the reason that I don’t need to use art for definite expression, is because I’m using different ways to talk about it. If someone is doing research about what I’m saying, then they would know.

You were saying earlier that you like Joseph Beuys a lot, because he considered all his behaviors and actions as his art practice, instead of making a point through making artwork in the art system. One can have all different kinds of practices, and you don’t mind if it’s art or not.

Right, I think all of his works are in fact constantly talking about the things he wants to say. You can call him a social activist, or an artist and educator. But to me, I don’t think he cared if people thought he was an artist. For example, he was talking to the people, and drawing on the blackboard afterwards. You think the majority of the people would understand what he was doing? Probably most of them wouldn’t understand what he was really talking about. But that’s not the point. The point is always about the thing he wants to talk about. Him talking about it is the whole purpose.

Why do we say all of his work came down from the altar once he passed away? It’s because he was the most important aspect of his work, his works were most meaningful with his own existence in it. That’s what I realized as a very important thing – when we are focusing on the details of art, focusing on if an artwork can deliver the artist’s idea more efficiently, we are in fact weakening the role of the artist. And artists, if they don’t realize this is a problem, then they will always be the group that gets consumed, and they will always be a weak group.

You seem like you have already figured out everything in the art world – how to do things, and the problems within it. But after you’ve understood all these problems, how are you going to position yourself within this circle? After talking with you, it sounds like you’ve already found a position that you find most suitable. You already know how it works, but you are not the type of artist who operates within the rules in order to manage your artist brand, thinking about how to sell your works, etc.

But I also don’t object to it.

It sounds like you’ve already decided to rely on another income in order to gain the complete freedom of talking about things you want to talk about, so that you don’t have to be limited by the restrictions that you see other artists having in the art world. The change of your awareness, from at first not knowing what the art world is like, to realizing there is an operational system, to now finding your current anchor point – was this whole process a gradual realization, or did certain specific things trigger you to have this kind of transformation? How did all this happen? Does it have to do with you coming to study in the US? 

The whole trend of the world is still about identity politics. Even though a lot of people say it’s already passé, I think it’s still happening, we are still talking about identities. Whether it’s globalization or localization, it’s still all about identity, you can’t escape from it. And I think the reason I used to think my platform was too narrow is because I’ve always been talking only about the stuff in the art world. But how to expand the platform is in fact about elevating the problem to the social level. How do you achieve that? By combining the platform you see together with your identity. Once you combine the two, it then becomes a social topic. 

So, a lot of the thinking about identity starts from being here. Because you will see all kinds of things, think about a lot of things. Those things in your life and the people around you. As an Asian artist working here, you will never be able to escape talking about identity. You don’t even have to say anything, even if your work has no Chinese element in it at all – when people see your name, knowing you are Asian, they will automatically understand you in a different way. This is their first layer of understanding. But domestically, we don’t have to do this. No one will say, “Oh, because you are from Henan province.” No one will analyze things like that. But here, it definitely exists. So to me, the thinking about identity has become much more frequent. 

So for me, how am I going to integrate all this together? I am Chinese, so the simplest way is to talk about Chinese society. Then what’s my dissatisfaction and astonishment with Chinese society? Very simple, that’s the question I’m going to talk about. When I express my dissatisfaction and astonishment through art, my platform naturally expands. My work, regardless of whether it’s the first project, the second project, or the current one. They are all talking about the method of art-making. I never thought one single work would have any significance; instead, it’s the way the work was made that makes a difference. All my works have been about this.

And then, through my experience and thinking here, I would then think about: as a Chinese person, what’s the significance of my way of creating the work? So this is the difference between before vs after studying abroad. Before, it was, what’s the purpose of the way I made this work? If I’m making a contemporary artwork, I’m in fact talking about the way of making. Now, it’s about what’s the significance of someone like me making a work like this. Then it will have a layer of social significance. Its platform gets bigger. It’s actually pretty simple, not that complicated. Just inference step by step.

It seems like you always know what you want, and have very logical mind set.

Yeah, I am a very logical person.

What’s your star sign?

Virgo.

Are your thoughts on identity influenced by people you’ve met through your study here?

I really haven’t thought about this. My thoughts emerged from here, so of course I’ll think they are related to my experience here. But I’m not sure whether it’s because New York make me feel this way or it’s because of my own wisdom. I’m thinking about it every day, I really like thinking.

Did the study here help you make any breakthroughs in your art-making? Or help you expand your thinking or reconsider about things?

Not at all. Not all all.

So is it mainly allowing you to freely make your work and think about these problems? 

Right, and making me dislike Americans even more (laugh).

What do they think of your work? Do you show them the work you made when you were in China?

Besides in the very beginning when all the new students made slideshows to present the works they were making before, I’ve never really talked my work. Oh wait - there was a show at Yuz museum in Shanghai, and there was a picture taken with my work in the show. Art in America used that picture, and I showed that work during the slideshow. A few months later, a classmate happened to find out about that, and asked me “Hey, is this your work?” And he asked during the class, so I became a little famous after that. Hahaha. That was the only time.

If it wasn’t for them seeing your work in that magazine, perhaps they didn’t think your work was much of a big deal, right?

The students here, you can feel their American pride. In fact, they are completely ignorant about much of the art in Europe. A lot of the famous European artists, they don’t know about them. But it’s the same with us Chinese, we don’t know about many American artists neither. The ones we know are the Andy Warhol kind of pop art artist. All the minimalism – minimalism is such an important part of art history here, and those artists are unknown to a lot of people in China. But we know that we don’t know, and a lot of them don’t know that they don’t know.

So, I just felt like… anyway, it’s rare that I can become real friends with the Americans I know here. I always feel like they have this sense of…. well maybe it’s just the people at my school, I can’t say all Americans are like this. I believe Americans have a lot of things that are worth aspiring to. But some people in my school… the majority of the students in my school are Caucasian, New Yorker kids. I really feel like they are spoiled children.

Is it quite different studying here vs studying in the UK during undergrad?

I was completely living an isolated life when I was studying in the UK. All my friends there were Chinese, or people who can speak Chinese. And because my English was not good, we were living completely as our own group over there, only hanging out with Chinese. Even though we were in the UK, but besides it’s not convenient for eating Chinese food, there wasn’t actually much cultural interaction with them. After all, we were only undergrads.

It was a different age and life experience.

Right. But the British are apparently much harder to make initial contact with than Americans. In the US, you will find people seem to be very friendly with you in the very beginning. Living here, you will find Americans in your friend circle, and all kinds of different people from different countries, they become your fixed friend circle, instead of only Chinese. Day to day, half of the time when you are talking with people, you are speaking English. We will hang out for coffee, eat something, or grab a drink. But I feel like I still haven’t fully entered their life yet. Maybe this part has stayed the same.

When you were in China, you already had a lot of exhibiting experiences, and you were quite an insider in the system already; you know how it works. So, when you came out to study again this time, do you have a clearer judgment of the art world in China, and how the art-making process is different for the artist you’ve come to know here. How do you compare the two ecological systems?

I think that precisely because I have the comparison, I actually don’t think there is that big of a difference. I can only tell the difference of a good artist and a bad artist. So, it’s the same. Bad artists don’t have much to say, or they have something they want to say, but the artists here are better at saying it from a western point of view, approach, and material. A good artist, no matter where they are, will have something they want to say. So I think this is a pretty accurate conclusion from what I have seen. All the good artists I see, they have something specific they want to say, but the bad ones, no matter where you are, you can see that they seem like they want to say something, but they really have nothing much they want to talk about. 

And the rest, I think it’s all the same. Maybe Chinese artists have different approaches and cultural backgrounds. But I feel like, the most important thing about being an artist is that you have to have something that you want to say – otherwise, why would you choose to be an artist?

Which mainland Chinese artists do you think have got something to say?

It’s a difficult question. I feel like most of the artists who have something to say are not that famous.

What is it like being a Chinese person living abroad? Do you feel very proud and confident that China is becoming more powerful now? 

Really? I don’t feel proud at all. If I tell people that I’m Chinese, I actually don’t feel that great.

Do you somehow feel worried or afraid?

Afraid of what?

Now China is becoming so powerful, but it also wants to control so many things. And your work is about making expressions through art. It’s a quite subtle and nuanced relationship there, trying to do things against this kind of background.

I don’t know how to answer this question.

I don’t really know what my question is.

First, I don’t really want people to immediately spot that I’m Chinese. Because to me, a lot of Chinese people really lack manners. Among my friends, my good friends, we are all the same type in a sense that we don’t want to bother other people. It’s not like we are super cultivated, knowing about proper western dining table manners. It’s just that we care about whether people around you will be bothered by your behavior. You care about others. But there are a lot of Chinese people here, especially the younger kids, when they come over here it’s really like… you know sometimes I will show newcomers around, treat them to a meal, help them get to know the city, etc. But quite often they will do something that makes me feel embarrassed. I really don’t like that kind of feeling.

So, I never felt glorified by China, whether China is becoming powerful or not has nothing much to do with my personal life. Because my family did not become richer as China become more powerful. My family are just teachers, you know? I never felt like I’ve become richer or better. In contrast, I hear more feedback from people saying Chinese people are uncultured, dirty, throwing trash everywhere, not caring if they are being loud, stuff like that. So I never felt any glory. Rather, I feel quite ashamed, not proud at all. There’s this one aspect, and then, if I feel nervous about China becoming more powerful?

Especially in the cultural field.

China’s culture is not powerful at all though.

Culture in terms of government regulation. It seems like in recent years, the government has been emphasizing Chinese culture, Chinese tradition, and Chinese cultural output to the world. 

I understand. In a certain aspect, I do support this kind of approach. Because many people in this world say we don’t need to turn a lot of things into eastern/western dualism. But to me, such distinctions should exist. As long as the country border still exists, the cultural difference should exist. Otherwise, there is no need for the border to exist, it’s merely a line drawn on the map anyway. This whole thing is about the whole ecology of the society. So, the reason that there is the conflict is not because we want to have conflict, but many things are related to the conflict. The economical aspect, the stability of the country, all these are related. 

So why should we talk about the east and the west, as well as promoting Chinese culture? It’s not because we really think Chinese culture is so great that we really need to rely on this to be cohesive. This is just a political means. What I mean is that, to me, such differences should exist. But it’s different than saying I support its existence – I just think it has a reason to exist. 

The premise is its existence, and I agree with the reason for its existence. But I want to fight against it, because I think the reason for resistance should also exist. It’s not like I really want to overthrow it – if I could really do that, that would be great. But I think they all have a reason to exist. This whole thing is not that complicated or sophisticated at all. It’s just that, me as a person having some thoughts, and I’m dissatisfied with this thing. But as an educated person, the only difference I have with the uneducated person is that I can understand all the existent beings have a reason and purpose to be. Which makes me more confident with the meaning of the existence of my dissatisfaction. Whereas the uneducated people would say: I don’t agree with that because that’s wrong, mine is right, so I have to fight against it. But to me, they are all meaningful.

The problem now is that one meaning is controlling so harshly that they want to make it look like the other meaning is wrong; this is what I’m unsatisfied with. Because I think they should both exist. I don’t feel nervous. Because I think what I’m doing is meaningful. I feel like what I’m doing is more meaningful than what a lot of people are doing. But there may be difficulties. Facing difficulties is also meaningful, and has a purpose. That’s about it. Though I hope I can find a smart way to deal with it, so it can continue to exist.

In terms of everyday life, would you want to go back and live in China?

I do want to go back, because I have things to do – I want to be an artist. Over here, I can at most be a commentator. It’s not that I think you won’t be able to survive here if you want to be an artist. I think if you are smart enough - it’s not necessary to be good with socializing. I think if you are smart enough and patient enough, in ten years, you can definitely survive here, especially in New York.

But I think I would only be able to be a commentator here, making artworks to comment about things. This is not really meaningful to me. But going back and become a force of resistance, that would be more meaningful. It sounds so much like a leftist, hahaha.

Your work How to become a contemporary artist first brought you in front of public eyes. When you finished that work, did many people wonder what you were going to do next, after you’d already understood and criticized the system from inside out? 

I think it’s super strange these people would have this kind of question. What they want is: you make one thing, and make more permutations of this one thing, so they know you are making progress. That’s what they like, that’s what they expect from an artist! Instead of - “I have no idea what you are going to do next.” In principle, shouldn’t it be more exciting when you don’t know what your next work is going to be like? It should be that’s the part worth getting excited about and be curious for. Instead, they are worried. Worried about what you have left to do after this.

Maybe it’s because the logic of this work of yours feels like trying to figure out a math puzzle. And your exhibition may make people feel like you’ve solved that puzzle. So they think: now what? It’s not that they doubt you’ll be able to make other new works.

But I feel like, if it’s done it’s done. What is there to doubt about. Of course, if it’s from an investment point of view, I can understand that. But for normal audiences, I really don’t get it. If you are just a normal audience, then if a puzzle is solved, that’s great. There is no need to ask, what puzzles are you going to solve next?

Maybe it’s because people have an expectation for artists, that you have to keep on making new works. What’s next? 

Right, but of course there will be new things. What I mean is, you should feel more excited about not knowing what’s next, rather than feeling worried out of curiosity. You know what I mean?

That’s what I feel quite surprised about. Because we are all so used to having an artist painting cross patterns their whole life (laugh). It’s like, say no more, he’s at a different level doing repeating work. We are used to seeing things progress step by step. But to me, the most exciting artists, you only know they go in different directions every time, you don’t really know what they’re talking about, but every projects of theirs are done pretty nicely. Isn’t this more interesting than the other way around?

We were talking about the artist Xu Zhen earlier. When he was first opening a gallery as an artist, it seemed like he was making a breakthrough point in the art system. But afterwards, it simply became another gallery. Of course, he still has his own practice as an artist, but the event with the gallery seemed like he had already reached an end. The action itself is symbolic, but afterwards, the gallery is still operating within the system.

I don’t think that’s a problem, I think as long as his gallery exists, it’s meaningful. It’s a bit like stuff inside the museum. You can say: you’re already doing pretty well, why do you keep on exhibiting? To me, I think the existence of his gallery is the purpose.

And then, whether he is making new stuff… Why should we expect him to have new stuff, or that he should make another great project like this? I think it’s already pretty amazing. Our expectation for sincerity is full of… Why should being sincere be separated from making profit? This is a really wrong idea. When he can make such a wonderful project, including the range of the art scene he created, and the whole state of the art scene in Shanghai, I think that is in fact inseparable from Xu Zhen.

But when he’s already made such a great project, and when he made this gallery, we then start to doubt it, saying “Shit, then it’s just becoming another regular gallery.” It’s because he can take this thing and make it effective, so we immediately start to question it. But there is no need to question it at all, it’s quite a normal thing. Its existence is already quite valuable. And then, if he really has new works, I would still be curious. But whether it’s going to be better or worse than this, to me, I don’t have that kind of expectation. And from my understanding, he is probably not going to do much more to overthrow what he has already established now.

Let’s go back to your work. For example, your paintings, quite often, they are just a sentence. They look pretty simple. You mentioned that you’ve never had professional training in painting, and those paintings look like they were done quite casually. Or you would often exhibit slightly altered found objects, that look like they were made in a very quick and casual way. But in reality, when you are making the work, was it really that casual, or did you in fact ponder a lot, or make many different versions? Or do you think everything through first and then realize the work? With those seemingly casual forms of work, how do you decide that the work can stand by itself? Or in other words, how do you know when a work is done?

This has to be discussed on a case-by-case scenario. For example, the project I’m working now, when do I think it’s done? It’s when I show the work to different people, when the work still sparks passion and complication, then it’s done to me. In other words, I would ask, do you know vaguely what my work is about? Ok, you know, but do you really know? You are not sure? Then the work is complete to me. But if I ask you if you know what this thing is, and you tell me you don’t know, then I think it’s still unfinished. Or, if you can understand what I want to say immediately, then I would also think the work isn’t finished.

So you decide by others’ feedback?

And my own feedback.

Shouldn’t you always be clear about your own feedback?

I imagine from a third-person point to view, looking at it from a role-play perspective. I will imagine what it would be like looking at if I walked into a gallery and saw this thing. If I have time to look at the work again, what would be the part that triggers my interest? Which part would make me think about other related things? What do I think the relation is between the object and the theme? If I think there is part of my work that can achieve this, then I can convince myself. And I’ll ask all different kinds of people to verify it. Then I’ll realize: oh, this person is sensitive about one thing, another person reacts to another thing, and this other person totally don’t get this part, but he knows the connection between this thing and the other thing. Then to me, that’s enough.

Regarding if the work looks simple or casual, I think part of is related to my own personality. I’m not someone who will make things complicated. And I think that’s also my advantage. Whenever I want to make it complicated, then in my own judgment, the work just isn’t as good as when I lay it out in a casual way. I feel like I’m better at provoking the audience through just one or two sentences. That’s what I’m good at. 

Are you still working on the Parenthood series? Or has it ended for now?

That was the starting point of my current project. This whole series is actually discussing two seemingly opposite things. When addressing one subject, these two things seem like they are contradictory. But when you think about it, they are actually the same. Now I’m considering one question from two different angles. At the end of the day, a lot of things are relative, even opposites.

Was the initial reason for starting this series related to your personal life? Because this is what your current life is like? Or was it because you had long thought about using this subject as a fuse?

The reason I started the Parenthood project, first, it’s because of my own identity. I’m a dad now. And realizing in retrospect how my parents educated me differently, I thought that was pretty interesting. And now my wife and I also educate our kids with a different approach. There is this triangular relationship the kids have with their parents. I just felt like this family structure is the most fundamental unit of how all societies function. So this was the topic I first wanted to investigate.

When I started to work on it, I realized what I really wanted to talk about is how to confront one thing from two different angles. But for this thing, these two different angles are actually the same. It’s like what I wrote in my painting – how my dad treated me, and how my mom treated me, and how in fact my love to them is the same. I can’t say if I love my dad or my mom more.

So the words in that painting were written from your own perspective? I thought you were writing from your kids’ perspective.

It’s from my perspective. And because of this point, slowly I realized: why am I only talking from two perspectives? I can totally talk about it from all angles. Then I don’t have to be limited by the binary structure. Otherwise, it’s still quite limited.

Now I understand you are using the family as a unit to talk about bigger social problems. But at first, I was amazed that someone would use the topic of parenthood to make artworks. Especially male artists, usually they will separate their artistic life from their daily life completely.

When that painting was hanging in the hallway, so many people thought it was made by a girl.

Because most male artists, especially Chinese male artists, their creative life seems to be separated from their everyday life. They will manage their artistic image, even though they have wives and children, they won’t let you see that side of their life, as if that would leave a negative impression. 

Totally.

Then how can you be so comfortable thinking, “It’s not a problem, and I’m going to use it to talk about things”? 

This goes back to what I said in the beginning. I feel like with my age and life status, raising two kids, having a very hard-working life here with my wife – it’s a thing that I’m proud of. I just feel like, I’m working so hard, why can’t it be known? It’s something that others would admire, so I have to talk about it.

Let me give you an example. My older works are like talking about if this cup should be placed on the coffee table or on the floor. And my earlier works list these two possibilities and tell you that there is actually no difference between placing it on the table or on the floor. Something like that.

But now I’m saying, the coffee cup shouldn’t be placed on the table, and the reasons are: the floor has a wider surface, so if the coffee cup is knocked off, the coffee won’t spill on you; and then, with this light shining on the coffee cup, it creates a ugly shadow; also, the surface of the coffee table is actually inclined, so the coffee might fall if you put it on the table; or say, the height of the coffee table is actually wrong… I’m now talking about why the cup shouldn’t be placed on the coffee table from all kinds of angles. Do you see that? This is the difference with my previous work – fundamentally they are the same, but structurally, it’s much looser and more flexible. 

With this strategy, I can talk about a phone or anything. I can talk about why it’s bad to have too many apps on the phone and list all different kind of points. When you realize and take a look at these two questions, you’ll know I’m actually discussing a method, instead of really talking about whether the cup should be placed on the table.

In other words, you don’t look at a question with a binary view. You’ve realized there are in fact so many possibilities that all makes sense?

I hope to make people realize that we should be discussing problems like this. And the deeper message behind this is that, once we can discuss problems like this, we can then really have freedom of speech in China. You know, the biggest problem in China is not that no one is speaking up, but that you don’t hear them when they do. Or, when you do hear someone speaking, you don’t really know what they’re talking about. But if you use my strategy, you can make your voice heard by others, and more or less know what you want to talk about. To me, this is one of the possibilities to achieve real freedom of speech. 

It’s a method, the point is never what you want to talk about. Whether the coffee cup should be placed on the table or if we should have a firewall to stop us from using Google is never the point. The point is how do you talk about it. Once you possess the method of talking about things, you can say whatever you want. 

That’s why I want to be a teacher, because I want my students to understand this. It’s the same idea as with what I just said – what’s the most important thing about being a good artist? It’s about what do you want to say. But what you want to say is not really just saying, “I think this society is really bad.” That’s meaningless. What you want to say is always about the way you say it, what does it mean. That’s what I want to talk about.

That’s why I say 90 percent of the reason I want to be a teacher is for myself. I’m trying to make more people learn the method of this thinking. Meanwhile, to me, I’m just doing things I want to do, not necessarily making artwork. I want more people to have this awareness, and art happens to be the best way to express it. Because people don’t need art to conduct direct communication. That’s why I still want to be an artist. And I want to let more people know about it, as well as finding the economic means to allow me to continue accomplishing these things. It’s all because I’ve got something I want to say.

So there is a political stance behind all these things you want to do.

Totally. This is what I’ve realized while I’ve been here. It’s not something that just sparked all of a sudden, but thinking about what my identity is here, what are the things that I really want to say. When I realize the things I really want to say – for example, we don’t have freedom of speech – it’s not like I go on strike out in the streets, or make a work that says, “I want to talk about it.” But if we don’t have freedom of speech, how can we have it, instead of just telling people that we don’t have it? This is what I have come to realize here. But I’m not sure it’s because of here, or it’s because I just happened to come to this realization here. That I’m not sure. 

But being here, you would obviously have a more detached and objective view, both geographically and psychologically, right?

The starting point for my thought was actually because of the re-election of Xi Jinping and the cancelation of term limits for the president. I was amazed by it, because I totally didn’t know this was happening. And then, a Korean classmate of mine asked me if I knew about it. He’s very interested in politics, especially relating to Korea and China. So when he asked me if I knew about this event, I said I didn’t know. And he was surprised that I didn’t know. Then I started to search on Weibo. During that time, the censorship on Weibo was pretty harsh – all kinds of keywords like “Xi”, “re-election”, “emperor” were censored. You couldn’t find anything. Only a few government accounts had limited information. Before the meeting happened, there was already news leaked to test the public reaction. You would see one message with thousands of retweets, but without any comments, because they’d turned the comments off.

I was quite surprised. And then, a few days later, the central meeting confirmed the gossip. And all the western media was talking about it. And they were all talking about it as an event that happened, no comment. But domestically, there was still no discussion. Or if there were discussions, they all sounded very ambiguous, composing the text in picture format and rotated 90 degrees to bypass censorship. And there were no replies underneath. Only then did I realize what had happened. 

And then after a period of time had passed, no one was discussing it anymore. I think this event is really quite astonishing,  and I have resentment about it. But you realize talking about your resentments is meaningless. The important thing is how do you talk about it. So that was a starting point for my later thoughts.

You know China is never short of all kinds of creative people, but all the information is posted on one platform – when the political system takes the platform down, all the things disappear. As time pass by, they really cease to exist. But if you post things on Twitter, YouTube, Weibo, Wechat, all the different platforms, when they cancel one platform, the topic can still exist.

But how can it exist in multiple dimensions. So you have to talk about the event from multiple angles. And you have to tell others you’re not talking about that thing, you’re talking about this thing. But everyone would know these two things are related. For example, if we don’t talk about Xi Jinping, we just emphasize the importance of the constitution, or if it’s legal and reasonable to change the constitution. And all the things are talking about this subject. Or rather, we don’t even talk about if it’s legal or reasonable. Maybe we’re talking about the relationships between people vs regulation and law. Talking about it from these angles… you can talk about how the law restricts people, what’s the relationship between power and the people, you talk about it and mix them together. When you talk about these things during that time, everybody can make the connections, and it’s going to be hard for the system to block this. Because you are talking about something else. That’s how you can talk about it.

I understand what you are saying, which reminds me of two points, and they are not related to the main topic of our interview.

I prefer it that way.

I think the problem is not only about whether you can talk about it - whether you can or cannot talk about it, it’s still just words. There is no action you can take.

You see, I completely disagree with you on this. Because, you are in too much of a rush.

Too much of a rush? You mean it’s not time to take actions yet?

Not even time to start talking about it yet. We have to think first. But now we don’t even have the opportunity to think, don’t even have a platform for it.

That’s also the reason why we can’t even talk about it. Because the punishment is too severe.

That’s because you are thinking about it too specifically. You are thinking like: because the restrictions or punishment from the political system are too severe, we can’t take actions, can’t think. You are thinking about it from this perspective. 

But the point is, from this point on, we stop talking about that event. Instead, we talk about phones, screws, apples. It’s a way to cultivate the thinking. When you can fucking give ten reasons why you don’t like to eat apples, from all different angles, and you are not saying that you don’t like the taste or texture, but that it’s because you like doctors, and “an apple a day, keeps the doctor away.” - I like doctors too much, and the apples are making me too healthy. If you can even talk about an apple from so many different angles, you can then have the possibility to talk when you want to talk about politics. This has to start from thinking, and then you can start talking. When you have been talking to an extended degree – then, you can start taking actions. 

You really would be a good teacher! (laugh). Of course thinking is good, if you can educate a group of people to think like that. But do you feel like, especially in these recent years, the whole social climate in China and the bigger environment is: you see netizens on Weibo leaving worrisome comments; meanwhile, populism has been rising across the globe. Perhaps the problem now is that no one cares about what you want to say, and the majority of people would think, “What’s wrong?It’s great! I’m pretty satisfied with my country.” They would bully you, not even bother to think. Or they would think, “What benefit do I get out of this?” It’s this kind of environment we are living in. 

Then that’s about expectations. I don’t have high expectations. That’s why I was saying you are a kind-hearted person – you still wanted to be a good teacher. But to me, when I’m doing this thing, it’s always about what I want to say. I never really care about the real meaning of doing it, what kind of change it could bring. I never had that kind of expectation. But my point is, I realized what I want to say. That’s more important than anything else.

In terms of the delivery of the work, whether you are using a sofa as a way of expression, choosing this material over the other because the other one would make people misunderstand... The reason I don’t consider that kind of stuff is because only when you are demanding a result from your expression would you discuss details like which material is better. But I never think about the result. All that’s important is that I need to talk. When I have something that I want to say, the external broader social background wouldn’t affect me. The only absolute most important thing is I need to speak in this environment. That’s the most important reason to me. 

Then do you think it’s important where do you talk about it?

Of course.

That’s why you have to go back to China?

The reason is that not only do I have to talk about it, I want to teach it. I want to teach and talk about it. Just like Beuys, when he said, “everyone is an artist.” He didn’t really just mean that, and you wouldn’t necessarily understand what he’s talking about anyway. The point is, you have too many things you want to express, but you can’t just express it in one way. Because it’s absolutely not enough. If you really want to talk about it, you have to talk about it in all kinds of ways.

So you just wanted to say it, and you don’t really care if you can successfully or effectively communicate your thinking?

I hope I can communicate effectively. But If I can’t, I wouldn’t be disappointed. Because just like you said, there would be restrictions from the bigger social environment and your own limited ability of expression. First, there is the restriction of the Chinese government, and then your verbal ability, even your IQ. All kinds of restriction. You can’t really find an extremely effective way. So I never had high expectations for that part. If it’s really effective, then good; if not, then I can jump back to art. From the art perspective, you are making a work. But from a western freedom of speech point of view, you are a freedom fighter. (laugh)

Tribeca, New York, 2019.2.15