Name: Carola

Age: 29

City: Shanghai

Can you introduce who you are and what you do?

I’m Carola Uehlken. I’m 29 years old and I’m a curator. I work on artistic projects as well, but I think I wouldn’t call myself an artist. But this is something like a border that interests me a little bit. What is a curator? What is an artist? What’s the difference between them, and what is needed for doing a professional work?

I never only studied art, I studied a lot of things at the same time. At the beginning, I wanted to work with chemicals. I wanted to go to work every day and have my free time afterwards, have my weekends and stuff, and become somebody who is working on energy, like how to make renewable energy. And then I studied literature and art history, and I moved more and more in the direction where I thought it’s necessary what I have to say about a few things. I thought it was interesting for other people, and I like to discuss things. And then I studied philosophy, and I applied again for art school, and I finally got accepted by the Studio Fine Arts. And this is what I studied for seven years.

And now you are curating, how did that come about?

I don’t really know. (Laugh) In the beginning, I always struggled with being an artist or not. And then, I didn’t really ask myself the question anymore. I didn’t want to have the pressure of showing people what I do and my own stuff because it was a little bit too personal. I couldn’t really do that.

And then, I was always interested in finding new places in the area where I lived in. And I did a lot of stuff together with my classmates when studying in Munster. We were finding old warehouses, finding kiosks and shops where we could use the in-between time when they restore something to do exhibitions inside. And this is where it all started. And afterwards, I applied for a program with three other artists. We had a space together for one year. And then I really started to love this. Finding out what could be necessary to show, in which venue, how it related to so many other things that were happening inside the city. Which was not really only dealing with arts but with the social structure inside the city.

To you, how is curating different than making artworks?

That’s a good question. I think the work is really closely related. But I think the biggest difference is that when you are working as an artist, you are building something on your own and you make the decisions for the whole thing. You have the body of the work, which I always like to call being the iceberg. You can only show a very very thin line, what comes across people. You have to decide what can be shown, what is the most important, and how to display it on your own. And then, there comes the curator who’s talking with the artists together. And it can change a lot. But on the other hand, all these decisions that are made for an artist: where to go, how to go, how to be supported. How to find application and all these kind of stuff is a different way of thinking, than for a curator I think.

Don’t curators mostly take care of finding funding and venues?

That’s the boring part. Like finding funding is such boring work.

What percentage of a curator’s work is that sort of thing?

It’s a lot of work. It’s like when…well, here in China, it’s different. Because in Shanghai, I have many more possibilities to ask for private funding. And in Germany for example, in all of Europe, it’s more that it’s necessary to have government funding. And therefore, you have to explain a lot. You have to give them all the points why this is really the most important thing that they have to invest in. And you have to talk with them about the cultural responsibilities that you have. And this is something that an artist never has to do. An artist doesn’t have to be reasonable. But a curator has to say “ok, this is why we have to show it.”

And I don’t really like it, because when you do these applications for funding, you have to tell them in a very precise way what you want to do. But art is super flexible. And when it comes to the action, when artists and curator are working together inside the space, there can be a lot of things happening in different ways. But then, you have to say to the funders this is why it changed to be this, and this is why it changed to be that. And yeah, in the beginning, it’s boring for you. But on the other hand, upon reflection, it’s kind of nice. You have it written down, to read it afterwards for yourself. You have documentation.

Why is it necessary to have government funding in Europe?

Well, it’s like you can apply for private funding and you can do crowd funding and stuff, which is common at the moment. But the political responsibility in this kind of thing is…people in Germany are very aware of that. People know that it’s a better show if you received governmental funding because all the taxes that people are paying in Germany are kind of going into a cultural fund as well. There is a small amount of money that can be spent. But for this small cultural amount, like people are trying to get this amount. Yeah, it’s something about thinking and people’s minds, they know that they pay for the arts.

And it’s super necessary for a society to have that, that everybody is responsible for it, and not only one small part. But well, when I would ask my parents for example I think they would say like, “hey I don’t have a clue where my money is going when I see these taxes.” Because it’s not very visual. But then you go to exhibition places, and you have something like the Goethe institute for example, which is really working with this government funding. Then you know that the whole society is somehow working on this together. And that’s kind of a cool image.

And I guess that’s very different from here? We don’t really have government funding for art. So how is your experience working in China as a curator?

Well I think last year when I came here, I was having my first experiences working in a curatorial team with 20 people, building up the first exhibition in Ming Sheng Museum. That was kind of weird, because all of them were super young, and they’d worked on the show for over one and a half years. And I got there only for the last month when all the pieces were being set up. And during that time I was helping them a little bit. But on the other hand, for me, it was the best opportunity to watch what happens inside this team and how people discuss everything. In Germany, it’s like very much people are discussing every detail through and through and through. And here, I think a lot of things are happening, but the discussion is on a different level. People aren’t going back on the decisions or something. In Germany, when you make a decision, it’s always something that can be denied or can be changed. There is always flexibility inside. And I think in China, here I notice more and more that this flexibility is something different.

How do you find young German artists different from Chinese artists in the way they make work, and in the way they think?

How do I say this… that people are working very seriously on displaying this at the moment. And people were telling me that 2 or 5 years ago, it was a little different. There was a little bit more like an opening up, more of a group mentality. But the artists themselves are very much talking about the necessity of doing their solo shows as well. It’s a huge thing, everybody wants to do these solo shows. Becoming professionalized, doing bigger artworks, working with galleries, having a plan for the next years, all these kinds of ideas are coming together.

Don’t German artists think the same way, don’t they want to be professional artists?

Of course they do. But I think German artists don’t really have a plan, actually. Well, the more they professionalize, the more they have to work with different people, the more they have a routine, and make a living out of art. And I think the main difference is that there is this whole different educational system in the background, which is super important.

I think even in Europe, Germany has the most outstanding critical but free arts education system. And this is something like, you have something like a professor, but this professor is an established artist and he doesn’t have a rule to teach you a certain way. So he’s just there, and you can come to him when you want to, but he’s not necessarily asking you questions about what you do. So when you are standing there, and if you don’t make any efforts in your work, you will not learn very much.

You have to learn from the beginning, what it means to be an artist. What it means to be alone in a situation where you are questioning yourself so much and you don’t know how to open up for different people. And then, it comes more and more to the discussions about everything. And I think here, that most of the artists that I meet are talking about this educational system here in a way that it’s…they don’t really like this time, or they like this time, but they don’t like what they learned in this time. And they want to get rid of it. And this takes a little bit of time after finishing university.

And then on the other hand, in Germany, artists are super poor, really poor, for me for example, working as a curator in Germany means I need to have three jobs at the same time. That’s super exhausting, and people are becoming more and more depressive about this. Because they do a lot of work, and the companies or the exhibition places and stuff, they always say, “Ai, I need more interns that are for free.” And then, they don’t have to make more jobs for other people and have more job openings. And this is what I learned here in China that there is a lot of money, there is a lot of support for artworks, which is coming from private companies, and I think artists have good possibilities to have space in which they can work in, a studio place for example. There are all these programs where you only have to give one canvas per year, and you can have rent for free the whole year, and stuff like that. It’s super usual here.

What’s your criticism for these young Chinese artists who want to be successful so much?

I don’t really criticize it that much in a negative way. I think they are under pressure from a lot of things.

Where do you see that pressure come from for them?

Well, I think there are a lot of things I don’t totally understand because I think Chinese culture is a culture that has a lot of distinctions between public and private. And I think to clarify my own thinking, or to get a more critical view of this, I really have to learn the Chinese language. To understand a lot more about interpreting, about the smallest steps of how to become an artist, I need to learn the language. Langue is culture. And I get a lot of things wrong, or I don’t get them at all. But I can criticize that I think that people are having a lot of fun at the moment. And this is cool, but, to be critical about it, it’s…the serious matters of doing art are somehow missing sometimes.

Seriousness?

Yeah, the seriousness of like, this is what I’m working on at the moment. And the dialogue of why this is what I’m working on and nothing else. Because as an artist, you can do anything. And you choose one thing, but sometimes, I really have the feeling that it’s more about…uhh, it’s difficult to say. Because on the other hand, I think there is a lot of pressure because you can’t say everything. I don’t know, there is this kind of political awareness of young artists.

How is your day life working as a curator here in Shanghai?

Well, I started two months ago working there. I had a few talks with my colleges about where to start before I came to Shanghai. And then I started organizing the first show with 20 German students. They gave me good support because I know it was super strange to have a show with all these German artists who are super young, and who do not have any experience here in Shanghai. But on the other hand, when we were talking about it, they were super interested, and that was nice.

And they really were interested about learning more and more about the system in Germany as well. That was nice. This was somehow a start for me, and it was saying goodbye to my academy system as well. I finished last year, that was not a long time ago. And my curatorial research last year was for this show. So, it all came together now, and I’m super happy with that. But I know for the next time, they want to grow the collections, and they want to do exhibitions with other institutions together. This is something that really interests me. Because, I can find venues, and I can support it from our own company, that’s a nice thing. But on the other hand, when I do exhibitions inside our company in the showroom, I want to find other sponsors as well.

This is something that I learned in Germany about the political responsibility of working together, and the necessity of having somebody who is supporting it. Because then, it’s more reasonable than if you just do your own stuff. So at the moment, I’m searching for good sponsors here, I try to integrate with universities, I try to have this educational system in the background a little bit more involved with this space. I know it’s a private collection, but I’m talking with them about this, that it’s for the public and for artists to see that you are working with people who are thinking in an academic way and that it is something that people can trust. And that’s cool. So I’m trying to force that.

Do you think there is a Chinese art world vs a Western art world or International art world if there is any difference?

Well, I try to not think of this. I try to not think that there is Western art and that there is Chinese art. I try not to think that there is no international art. But I know that there are a lot of things that people are dealing with inside societies, which are different. And I think this is making art scenes or art interests different several decades, making art history I think. But when I talk to Chinese artists here, I don’t really have the feeling that it’s super different. I don’t really get the feeling. But for me, it’s weird to know that this is a society, which is still super interrupted from the Cultural Revolution. For example, coming from Germany, we all are talking a lot about our history, a lot about what happened during the 1950s and the society is still kind of shocked. This is something that is not going to heal in a very short-term time. And this is something I can’t really get, I think.

But I think there is an international art scene, for example, when I see the works of Wang Xin, and she is asking herself questions that I’ve heard before. I can hear these questions when I go back to Germany now, or like all this new media stuff. The artists are discussing media that did not exist before. This is happening internationally. This is nothing that belongs only to the Chinese or only to the European art system.

What other jobs have you done while you were trying to develop your artistic career?

I was working in a bar during most of the time in my studio. And then I started assisting artists for a few shows they did. At the moment, I’m still working for a painter coming from Berlin, and I’m writing articles for a few different catalogue projects that he’s doing. And then, I try to do some funding all the time for different book projects that I want to do. At the moment, I’m working on cooperation in the creative scene.

The money-making jobs you do, do you think you can get an inspiration for your work from them, or do you think they’re just a necessary evil?

No, I totally get a lot out of it. Usually, I like working in a bar a lot. I like it more than working in an office, that’s for sure because you learn a lot about people. And art is about people as well. And on the other hand, I have to breathe through as well. I can’t do all these art things all the time. You have to have a relation to the reality.

Where do you see yourself in three to five years?

Perhaps I will be back working in the bar. (Laugh). No, I don’t know. I think I will continue like this. I think I will continue working from one to another. And there is not really a long life plan. But I think moving from one place to another could change a little bit because I did that a lot the last years. Well, I always say that. For example, last year, I wanted to move to Berlin, but I came to China. And now there is something different. So I think it’s super organically that something new is coming. So, three years? I don’t really know. I can’t imagine I’ll be working in something like a gallery... I think I will do always a lot of things at the same time.

Interviewed in Zhongshan Park, Shanghai, on May 31st, 2015