Name: Anonymous

Age: 27

City: Unidentified

Please introduce yourself.

Hmm, self-introduction… I don’t want to say I’m an artist because it’s an occupation. When I say I paint, and I take photos, people ask me: “So you take product photos for Taobao?” “Painting? Oil painting?” Then I would just say yes, and fool with them. Because it’s actually hard to describe what I do. Every day, I’m acting so excited as if I’m about to make a revolution. (Laugh) Like a fool. I’m not saying I want to live very differently from other people. I guess I’m just looking for the courage. Yeah, the courage to live a life like this. To see if I can be responsible for myself, because there will be so many problems.

I’m curious what kind of problems you’re referring to.

For example, if you are going to have a career as an artist, what will it be like when you are 50 years old? I would think about it sometimes. Say, when I’m 35 years old, am I still going to be living the same life as now? What will I be like when I’m 40 years old? 50? One day, when I have a kid, what kind of future living situation will that be? I don’t actually want to be isolated from society. I think anyone would want to have a role in society, a social identity. We all need it, to have a place in this world.

How do you see the status of being an artist under the background of today’s social environment in China?

Damn, I think it’s disabled. To me personally, I think art does not resolve any problem. It’s quite weak. I don’t know why. But it’s not going to solve your problems in reality. First, it’s not going to change the reality of your life. It changed the way you live but it can’t change your identity for example. It won’t change. I think you are more of an artist than me. You travel all around, you don’t have a settled place, and you are careless. But for me, I’m still someone who’s very close to life. I’m talking about marriage and having kids, etc. My work used to be very expressive. I wanted people to hear what I was talking about. But now I think it’s a bit too much and quite narcissistic. It’s boring if you are always only talking about yourself, other people will get annoyed too. It’s like someone who can’t even be counted as intellectual acting up, quite silly. Some artists are like this nowadays. It won’t do anything. Plus your work in the art world is merely at an average level. And your art won’t even serve a political purpose.

What do you think of the saying that “Art and artists should serve a critical role in society, making people aware of what’s wrong with the world.”

Yeah, there are these elements, but do you think it is realistic among our generation who were born in the 80s? It’s pretty weak. I think we can’t bear to say words like this to define ourselves. Maybe our previous generations could. For example, Ai Wei Wei. Although I doubt that the problems he opposed were simply an enemy he created for Westerners to consume. A lot of what he’s doing in China is actually making an enemy on purpose. Maybe that enemy does not even exist anymore. But he needs an enemy, an opponent. The opponent is his ally. The more people attack him, the more they become the partners of his show. He needs such an opponent. Only that makes his work complete. Otherwise, he’s performing a one-man show and no one is following. That would be so sad.  

How do you see the very mundane part of your life that may be quite far from an ideal artist’s life? Especially in Chinese culture, for example, you have to get married at a certain age and then have a baby. A lot of Chinese artists seem like they are living a quite Westernized life now that they go attend exhibitions and opening galas, but at the same time, you have this very secular life that you can’t escape. For example, the expectations of your parents. Isn’t it quite split?

Is it? I don’t think so. What’s an artist’s life in your imagination? I think you are still thinking about how artists lived in the past. What we usually think about when talking about artists are those who exist in art history, not those who are currently living. What do you see contemporary artists are doing? They are just living an ordinary life. Artist is merely a different occupation. I think we don’t know much about other careers. I think the freest lifestyle is not among artists. I think artists are at the bottom of society. Very low-income labor. What he puts into making the work and how much value he can get from the labor is not equal. You see he can’t even self-distribute works he made on his own. He has to rely on other people, like galleries and dealers.

Isn’t it better this way? Because it’s a totally different mentality when you are creating than when you are doing the sales.

But there are people who can do both themselves. I think people from the middle class can maybe live a very wild lifestyle. He can have a big party at his private club. He can call a bunch of friends and have an orgy party in a villa hidden in a forest. I think that kind of life is quite nice. And it’s free too. It doesn’t have anything to do with art. But it’s about humanity. How we humans escape from the rules of the society, and the wrestling between the great and evil parts of humanity. There is the discussion about belief too but in a bigger sense. For example, there are elements of religion and culture. Also, how open can you be when judging a human as an animal. It’s all within the orgy, the question it’s raising is beyond art. Can you imagine in that kind of setting, if you invite artists like us there, definitely we are going to look like some dumbasses. Damn, I wouldn’t even know what to do there because there are totally different rules of the game. I think it’s a quite awesome game. I want to join it, even if just to have a look or shoot a video, as long as I can be part of it. That would be a totally different experience.

So are you currently a full-time artist? How do you make a living?

By selling works.

Wow, awesome! Is that enough money to live?

Is it a lot with less than 130000 RMB a year?

That’s not bad. Some of those people who work a 9-5 jobs may just earn about the same.

Right, but what’s your advantage? Other people who work a regular job earn that much, and you are making artworks, but you earn the same.

But you are freer.

Not at all. I was talking to a designer friend about this yesterday. I told him, since the year before last year, especially after I got married, I feel like I can’t enjoy myself anymore whenever going to parties. No matter what kind of party it is, I’m not having fun. Just can’t enjoy myself. I feel like I’m too mature and uptight now. And I was wondering why. He said it’s the same for him too. He used to work for a company, but now he’s a freelance designer. He has his own company now. He said when he was working at the company, he could make around 8000-9000 RMB every month, and that was 5-6 years ago. It was quite a high salary back then. He used to get the work done during working hours, and then have fun afterwards. He felt quite happy because he didn’t have to be responsible. Once he got his work done, the rest was all his boss’s business. Then on Saturday and Sunday, it’s like when we were in primary school, you get so excited on Fridays. You hurry to finish the homework then play like crazy during the weekend.

Whereas now, you have all the time to freely arrange, but you don’t feel like you have enough of it anymore. It’s quite a shame. You don’t have break time anymore. You are still thinking about projects before you go to sleep, even when watching a movie. Your mind is all tied up with it now. Let’s say when you are watching a 3D movie, you are supposed to relax and consume it, but all you are thinking is the process of the 3D movie. Is it possible to shoot one myself? How did they get this shot done? How can I make it happen? You will be thinking about stuff like this.

Are you under a lot of pressure?

Yeah. I’m very stressed.

Where does your stress come from?

Everywhere. For example, I will be thinking that some of my works are selling pretty well recently, but what am I going to do when they are all sold out? What else can I sell? Or let’s be specific, should I sell this work? I’m not sure if this collector is professional enough. If I sell the work to him, I’m not sure if it’s good for my future career. But if you don’t sell, you are short on money. Or sometimes, you sell for a cheaper price. And you think, shit, just think of it as a business. You can sell with a lower price. The cost of making was just that much, and now you are selling for a much higher price. Or, am I short on money lately? I will be debating it back and forth.

Afterwards, I think I’m pretty lucky. Video art is hard to sell anyway. When I first graduated in 2008, my income was only around 20000 RMB annually. But I was able to survive. Now I earn $130,000 RMB a year, but it’s still not enough. I don’t know why. Maybe the RMB is devalued. And I’m used to living like this, never having savings, income and spending are always not balanced. You can merely make a living. Then my pressure keeps getting greater and greater. Because every year, I’m thinking that I’m selling works only because I’m lucky. Really, because it’s hard to sell, and there is no gallery selling it for you. You are just selling by yourself. Then what if not a single work can be sold next year? Then I don’t have anything. Then you start to think about a backup plan. But the more you think about a plan B, the more you get hesitant about an artist career. So, sometimes, it’s a battle. I try not to think too much about it. 

What is your daily living and working situation like? Do you come to the studio every day?

The reason why I wanted to rent a studio here is that I want to be away from my wife. At home… at home is too much of a daily living environment. Too damn familiar. In that environment, your mindset is in a formed setting. For example, once you sit on that chair in that space, you are supposed to watch a movie. Once you walk into that room, you are supposed to drink tea. Once you walk over there, you are supposed to cook. Then which space is for work? None. It’s very limited. Plus my wife is next to me, and I get distracted by the Internet. My attention is very divided. And it’s hard to concentrate on whatever I’m doing.

So now, I will take the time to come over here every day, even if I’m just hanging out here doing nothing. Because everything here is very unfamiliar to me, so I have to find the only thing that I’m familiar with, which is to create. For example, I’ll come here to edit a video, or come here to read a book. I come here to get work done. I guess I’m trying to set a rhythm for myself, and to give myself some alone time. I find even if it’s just watching a film, I can absorb more here than at home. I want to spend time by myself, simply because it feels good to be independent.

People who have a regular job may envy people like you who are freelance. You are free to arrange your own time, do things you’d like to do. Is that true?

No, I don’t think they should think like that. Those kinds of people are being childish and complaining about life. If you really give them one year of free time, ask him to do nothing, they won’t be able to handle it. Probably he would feel lost after just one week. He would think: “Fuck! What shall I do with all this time? Shit! Am I being too lazy and depraved? I’ve got nothing to do. Maybe it’s better to go back to work.” Really, he might be falling apart after one week. So now as for me, I have to be fully responsible for myself. You really have nothing within a year. And you are constantly worried about things. Shit, what if I got sick? What if I get caught in a traffic accident? What if I have cancer? I would be abandoned by society right away. I’d have nothing then.

There are so many problems you don’t even want to think about it. For example, we don’t have a housing fund. We don’t have medical insurance, we don’t have social security… we have none of that insurance. Fuck, so if you need an operation and it costs 50000 RMB, maybe if you have medical insurance or social security, you will get 60 percent reimbursed. But for me, I’ll have to pay 50000 RMB cash in order to get the operation done. So these are the types of things I’ll start to think about. It’s a possible obstacle that you are going to face one day. Will you be able to carry that responsibility for yourself? Really, life is fair. You get one year of freedom, but you might have to face all these risks at the same time.

So in situations like this, I’m afraid to talk about art with other people, especially with those young artists from Western countries. They feel like they are having a fun time, and art should be fun. But I don’t think I have a common language with them because they live in a fully developed society where art is supported, but we don’t have that kind of system at all. We are not from the same social ladder. It’s like our community guard from the countryside wearing a British gentleman’s suit and discussing how to serve residents better with a real British butler. Oh my god, it’s like a chicken talking to a duck! Not even speaking the same language.

So you’ve never worked for a company before and never thought about doing so?

Yeah, I’ve totally given up. I’ve done a project that was a bit like working for a job. I was working for the government organization. And they wanted to have an exhibition hall for historical documents, a bit like a museum. I didn’t have any passion for it at all because I had to work for other people. I’m like this. I don’t have any enthusiasm working for other people’s projects. I’ll only do what you ask me to do. But if I’m working on my own projects, I’ll have to try my best to make myself satisfied. So I did that project for 3 months, and it was pretty tiring. Every day we would have to work overnight. In the end, I felt so annoyed, I’d really want to give my salary back to them and tell them to fuck off. I can’t continue working like that anymore. It’s fucking depressing.

Every day your proposal gets revised, every day you go there to edit the video, and you don’t have any common language with them. He would say no, this doesn’t work, and that needs to be changed. It’s all those rubbish political shots. He would tell you “This shot you have to do it this way, your camera needs to tilt up, tilt up more. You can’t frame the leaders in the same height as you, right? You have to tilt up, so to reveal his greatness.” Their visual language is pretty fucking standard. And then “These words needs to be bolded and bigger.” “The font needs to be strong and powerful. It has to be big enough to keep up with the frame size. And it needs to reveal the sense of love and humanity. Can’t be too fashionable.” Then you are like, fuck! God dammit! What am I fucking doing?! Jesus!

Ok, this is going to be a very lame question. Where does your inspiration come from?

I just keep on thinking all the time. It’s a bit like a self-training exercise. I’m pretty satisfied with my current status. Of course, there are bad parts about it too. The simplest training starts from when we are little, so when you want to learn to paint, the teacher will ask you to draw a straight line. Then a normal person who never painted before will say “Oh my god! How did you draw the line so straight? How did you do it?” In fact, it’s just training, non-stop training. So later when you go to art academy, they will give you some aesthetics training: color composition, graphic design etc. From then on, you start to have a taste of beauty. When you start to look at things, you would think, hmm, this color doesn’t look quite right. So to me, I think when you are an artist, sometimes, you are competing with other artists on the way of thinking, on logic. Then some other times, it’s about how you digest and excrete what you read. Some artists, they have read hundreds of books, but they still make bad works. That means their digesting system is too poor. What you read is separated from who you are.

Another part of the artists’ competition is in production. I’ve told you earlier that I feel like I’m about to be eliminated by the system because my productive force is too far behind. Other artists are now using the RED camera to produce or using a company mode to produce, having 30 assistants to produce… but I’m still just alone by myself. I don’t have the equipment, nor an assistant, even my English is poor. I’m still in the agriculture period, but others have already started capitalist exploitation. I’m still at the farmer’s economic stage, self-producing and self-distributing. Self-supporting. Am I right? It’s a comparison. So nowadays, can you say there is no standard for art? You could say there is no standard. But if you say there is a standard, then there really is one. If there is no standard, how am I going to measure you? Art today is just like automobiles, iPhones, and everything else, there is somehow a standard to decide if you are a good artist or bad one. I think definitely there is an index. Take, for example, Ai Wei Wei, his social appeal is his standard. If he wants to borrow 5 million or 10 million RMB, he can do it. Can you? Such is one’s power and ability. It’s one standard of measuring whether you are good enough. 

To me, you are now in the working and thinking mode of a so-called “Professional artist”, but what was the process like? I mean from your graduation to today, how did you learn to be “professional”?

Actually I’ve paid a price all along the way. I think I’ve had many lessons. I’m not so mature even as of today. In fact, I’ve always wanted to learn from those senior artists who I admire, not to learn how to make the work, but how to deal with the world. How did they handle all those things? Because there are so many things you have to confront. I used to be called naïve and student-like by others, because I’m always talking about the work. Of course your work is important, but it’s not everything about being an artist.

Also, for example, when socializing, how do you talk about your work with curators? How do you communicate with other artists? How do you talk to the collectors? When you are surrounded by a lot of people, how do you express yourself? There are many steps. Also, once you’ve sold a work, should you give some percentage of your income to the one who introduced you? If you give him the money, he probably won’t take it. But if you don’t give him, he would think badly of you. Then he will never work with you again. There are many rules like this. It’s a rule of the game.

This type of stuff, there is no class teaching you about this in China. But as far as I know, there are classes about how to become a professional artist in foreign countries. They would teach you how to manage yourself, how to make PDFs or PPTs. How to make a perfect resume so you look good when showing at museums or to get an artist residency. But there is no such training here. So you can only pay attention yourself. You look at other artists, wow, how did they manage to make their resume so beautiful? How did they do it? The format looks so perfect! Or even with sending emails, how can you express yourself very clearly through email? I think it’s a skill.

Also, looking at art works is part of the learning process too. You would look at the details of his work, how he treats the details. Or where is his starting point? What’s the purpose of making the work? What is his thinking process like? For example, you can really tell one’s overall ability through his solo exhibition. How does he handle his works, how to filter out the unnecessary parts? For example, a friend of mine was just shown in an exhibition in Beijing. After the exhibition, he sent everyone in that museum a thank you letter. As far as I know, there were 50 people shown in that group show, but only he remembered to send a thank you letter. I think it’s an attitude, an attitude of paying respect to this career.

Are you happy with your current living and working status?

I’m not unsatisfied. I don’t want to complain about anything, and I think I’ve not done enough. I think it’s important to understand the reality. I find making contemporary art perhaps has made me more realistic. Maybe I would still be fantasizing about things if I were working in other occupations. I might think if I don’t continue doing this, maybe I can do something else. I think it’s bad to imagine about things. In fact, I think now as an artist, I’ve become more grounded, and I don’t have any fantasies. I won’t even think about what kind of job am I going to do if one day I stop making artwork. I think it’s impossible. I would be nothing if I don’t make art. If you want to do something else, you have to start from zero, and now you are in your 30s. Are you kidding? There will be a huge gap. So now there is no backup, no turning back. Nothing. I can only go forward. I think that’s the best I can do at the moment. The past has passed, and the future is right now. So be fearless and go ahead. There is no way back.

Interviewed somewhere in China, September 18. 2013